JFK’s Secret Service protection being waved away from his car
JFK’s Secret Service protection were waved away from his car.

You will be riveted by this video, not even three minutes long, showing JFK’s Secret Service protection being waved away from his car, and the perplexed reaction of at least one Special Agent.

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This movement by the S.S. men has confused and perplexed me for years. To me, it is EVIDENCE that the scenario was directed by some entity other than a “lone” gunman. This is just one “duuuh !” moment in my observations that confirm my conclusion that the “official story” has become blatantly BOGUS, and the whole sad story needs to be revisited, studied, and revised.

Jeff Grotke

prosecutions would be nice, too.


The guilty parties are the age of George H.W. Bush, who just turned 89. He will go to his grave like Jerry Ford did…well rewarded for his part in history (not the “secret”, criminal parts), secure in his wealth and all he has done to increase the wealth and stature of his heirs. Ford was well rewarded for his “excellent work” on the Warren Commission, our only unelected President (up until 2000 and SCOTUS’s “kinging” of George W. Bush), who pardoned Richard Nixon to save Nixon’s hide, not for “the good of the Country” as Ford said. A vigorous prosecution of Nixon would have dashed the notion of Imperial Presidency which we have suffered with since.When I say Imperial Presidency think of the October Surprise and Iran Contra (Reagan and Bush), 9/11/weapons-of-mass-destruction/torture justification memos/election fixing (George W. Bush/Dick Chenney). When Nixon resigned, there should have been an election within a year…if Ford wanted to run and won, so be it.This is the “let them eat cake” crowd (especially the Bush family…funny how George H.W. was so close to so many strange events….) And Cheney worked in the Nixon Whitehouse and is a great fan of Imperial Presidency.

Frank von Winkhorst

Good luck with that. No one was ever prosecuted for sinking the Maine as an excuse for the Spanish-American War. Neither was Secretary of War Stanton prosecuted for his complicity in the Lincoln assassination.

Frank von Winkhorst

Well, considering that there is a photograph of the “three tramps” that shows Ed Lansdale, at the time lately of the CIA and identified by Col. Fletcher Prouty and Gen. Victor Krulak who worked near him at the Pentagon, I would suggest to you that the “entity” that directed the operation was said Lansdale, whose job had been overthrowing foreign regimes unfriendly to the U.S. and its corporate overlords. Again, this is all old news in the JFK research community.

Joe Villanova

I believe that Kennedy was murdered by rogue people within the federal government by very wealthy 1 percenters who did not like the course in the way the country was heading.


well, ALL those rogues probably weren’t part of the actual deed, but I think that many of them were there in Dallas to watch, and many more of them were privy to the plot.
Obviously, nobody’s talking if they were in on it, but my hope is that someday, someone will drop a clue, or be forced to confess their sins and “out” some of the others.

We need to keep up the pressure and and keep digging and prodding to make sure “they” don’t think we’ve forgotten. The same is true for the events of 9/11. Many of these big, Historic events are just too big for us to NOT understand.

Joe Villanova

And eventually the truth will come out.

Frank von Winkhorst

The truth has come out. What you appear to mean is that it hasn’t been acknowledged by the mainstream media and the government. I should point out that this need to have reality substantiated by such as the media and the government is a form of authoritarianism. It is analogous to the need to have the Church during the Middle Ages confirm that the world was a sphere, whereas it was only necessary to do a little independent thinking.


People have confessed what they know. They usually end up ridiculed or dead.

Jeff Grotke

i think they were brought into dallas, not just to watch, but so that anybody close to power would not be able to separate themselves from the plot, implicate them, and take power. Nixon’s actions after the fact make it seem like he may have been unwittingly pulled into the meeting. Anyhow what are the odds that on the day of the shooting that Bush, Nixon, and LBJ, three future American Presidents would all be in Dallas?

Frank von Winkhorst

Rogue my barnacles. None of these fall back positions: rogue elements, mafia, antiCastro Cubans, proCastro Cubans, explains the government-wide coverup. The only thing that explains the government-wide coverup is a government-wide conspiracy, whether originating in the government itself or in its corporate puppetmasters. The bottom line is, there would be no reason to cover it up if there were no culpability. Coverup=Culpability. Coverup=Accessory after the fact. Coverup=Murder One.


I don’t know how long ago this post was but I wanted to add this if hasn’t been said I heard somewhere I can’t remember but lbj wanted Jackie to ride in his car and he was adamant trying to “bully” her into and she was in a stupor thinking wtf I’m riding with my husband the people want to see us


The contained in this video is only partially correct. The agent on the left side of the car (Jackie Kennedy’s side) was Clint Hill. He was NOT called off by Emory Roberts. The agent shown throwing up his hands in frustration is Henry Rybka. He was scheduled to ride on the right front running board of the follow up car. Clint Hill’s job was to protect Mrs. Kennedy. Rybka’s job was to protect the president. As an experienced agent, Rybka (like Hill) was more than capable of doing this. That Emory Roberts called him off the car and told him to remain at the airport is HIGHLY suspicious, as this left new and inexperienced agent John Ready at the right front running board (the closest agent to the president). When the shooting started, Ready started to leave to leave the running board like Hill, but was called back by Roberts. Hill heard Roberts’ order but, bring experienced, ignored it and ran for the car (something Rybka would surely have done as well. Ready, being new, obeyed his superior and stayed on the car. One final note: the hand hold and steps on the rear of the presidential limo were not meant to be manned for the entire motorcade. Agents Hill and Ready left the follow up car and took up positions on the rear of the president’s car several times in the motorcade when crowds got thick. Nothing suspicious about them not riding there as they left the airport, just the leaving of agent Rybka is suspicious.


Did Rybka ever say anything about that day? Perhaps he himself suspects/affirms conspiracy? Not only being called off protection, but then to have the President die in his absence must have enraged him to no end…


Michael is correct on these procedures. The video is a little less than it seems – but there remains more than enough suspicious undertakings by the Secret Service.
The agents were supposed to jog alongside the limousine when it was travelling slowly, to fall back as it picked up speed. So Rybka wasn’t being called back from routine duties – he was probably being told that the jogging portion of the protection was over. The question could be: why weren’t similar procedures undertaken in Dealey Plaza, where the Secret Service already knew the limousine would be slowed down considerably and dangerously by the hairpin turns. In Dealey Plaza, the limo driver Greer slowed the vehicle almost to a halt just ahead of the fatal shot.

BTW, Emory Roberts turned his allegiance over to LBJ immediately at Parkland Hospital – before Kennedy had even been declared dead.


Seems like it must be taken in the larger context of the Secret Service, which the accompanying article serve to provide much of, but perhaps not a sufficient amount. I have this uneasy feeling that 50 year mark will put a capstone on the secrecy and the evidence that we’ve not yet seen will just rot and be lost to posterity. What we need is someone on the inside to let it out.


We need some snowdens in the government or formerly in the government to expose the crimes against JFK, RFK and MLK.

Frank von Winkhorst

We do. They have a peculiar tendency to die prematurely. See Richard Belzer’s Hit List.


What can one say? This is, at bottom, such a sad film to watch . . . with both Jackie and JFK waving trustingly to those around them. Such treachery and they didn’t even realise it. I grieve for them, and for our country.


The narrator mentions four film clips that will be shown, including one that the FBI had seized and never allowed to be shown before. Can we see them somewhere?


that’s actually a “coming attractions” thing, apparently, for something we havent looked at yet–but will. Thanks.

Jeff Grotke

this clip first emerged in a British documentary at least a decade ago. I was fully aware of it before reading your book, and it is widely available on youtube. the maddening part is that evidence just seems to be categorized in one way or another and never put together. “New” evidence arrives and we forget that it was ignored and buried, already, many years ago. If you put it altogether, including the testimony of LBJ’s mistress, the deathbed confession of Howard Hunt, the Zapruder film, the fact that 1000 documents are secret for some unknown reason, and this video, the evidence is overwhelming. Your book adds the background and connections that reveal where this all came from. In my view every history textbook in America ought to be changed.


Thanks for another great and awesome clip on why we must never forget the reasons behind the horrible deaths of President John F. Kennedy, Rev. Martin Luther King, Jr., and Senator Bobby Kennedy, and how national and cultural and socioeconomic circumstances radically changed with their demise.

As we know from David Talbot’s book, Brothers: The Hidden History of the Kennedy Years, along with Peter Janney’s book, the Kennedy brothers had strong misgivings about the US Secret Service given past performance and were working to replace their presidential bodyguard with the much more reliable and honorable US Marshal Service.

David Rockefeller is still alive, and as long as there lives a Rockefeller, Mellon or Harriman (Mortimer), the investigation should reopened so that this scum can be brought to justice for their crimes against humanity.

Which have continued under Reagan, Bush #1, Clinton, Bush #2 and Obama…..


Even Poppy Bush is still alive.


I’ve thought one of the most tell tale signs of government involvement has to be the fatal ‘head shot’ … it was obviously a unique projectile. I’m inclined to believe research showing it was some type of ‘frangible’ bullet, usually composed of a plastic compound and used in cases where the intent is to not injure those nearby. Once the ‘frangible’ round fractures the container it kind of goes crazy, tearing up whatever is inside, until it finally blows out at the weakest point. In the early ’60’s this was cutting edge technology, only available to the military or their contractors. On youTube you can see comparisons of ‘frangible’ vs. regular rounds, where they shoot into various melons and such, the difference is amazing. Doug Horne & Peter Janney have interviewed a retired veteran of the national photographic interpretation center where the night after the assass. he worked on the ‘original’ zapruder film, creating prints for a set of display boards. He recalled the limo came to a complete or nearly complete stop b4 the final shot, the exploding brain matter went about 3 times as high as in the ‘extant’ film. The more you study this caper it’s obvious it was VERY meticulosity planned out.

Frank von Winkhorst

It had to be a so-called dum dum bullet. Kennedy’s head was in his wife’s lap. If it had been a normal bullet it would have gone right thru her, so unless this was another of those magic bullets manufactured in an obscure little factory in Tibet, it self destructed inside of his head.


A so-called dum-dum bullet is also called a wadcutter and is an inexpensive round without a bullet projecting from the shell, used exclusively for target practice. His head was in her lap after the last shot so there is no chance for any of the shots fired to have hit her. The last round was an explosive frangible round the type carried in the AR 15 carried by George Hickey, USSS, directly behind the president. He claims he grabbed it after the last round, but his statement is a lie based on photographs of him in the motorcade. Why did the secret service threaten doctors a Parkland Hospital with physical harm if they insisted on an autopsy. The same agents who were sworn to protect are now threatening to kill doctors if they insist on doing their jobs?

Bruno DiAgorno

Frangible bullets are composed of compressed metal powder. They tend to disintegrate on impact thus imparting almost all of their kinetic energy into the target. The are used in training as well as CQB because they don’t ricochet or penetrate barriers, but are devastating to soft targets. It’s very likely that JFK was shot with a frangible round (or possibly a soft-point bullet) given the damage done – and there would be nothing but metal dust to recover. A FMJ round would have “ice picked” through his head and possibly not killed him (contrary to popular myth, not all head-shots are fatal). It was the choice of someone who knew what they were doing.


Russ, you have to hook up with Ben Swann somehow. He’s raising gobs of money with his Kickstarter campaign, and his career is on fire. He’s very much aligned with your philosophy. If you could strike up some kind of formal or informal relationship between whowhatwhy and Ben Swann, then, my god, there’s no limit to what you all could uncover. Just a thought–that I’d love to see happen!


This event is the not the beginning of of our tragic slide to fascism, but a real turning point to a steeper slide. I think it is much more important than most people think. The people of the U.S. allowed this crime to go uninvestigated & unpunished. I admit that I myself was so shocked by this and the following assassinations of the 60’s, that I withdrew from any political activity or advocacy for years. I have long recovered though, and would hope more folks could recover their senses and demand accountability for this and many other crimes of state that our good old (insane) uncle (sam) has commited.
Oliver Stone did a great thing with JFK, arousing many, but not enough. Now the interest has subsided again and we need to stoke it up!
Thanks Russ for keeping it in view. Please make the picture even bigger and clearer!

Frank von Winkhorst

It’s been investigated. It’s just that the investigation has been carried out by civilians and not the poor excuse for a government we currently have. And most of the conclusions are in. We know who did it. We know who covered it up. And we know who benefitted. And it’s those researchers who have kept it alive. Not some website perveying YouTube videos.

Jeff Grotke

We allowed these same people to carry out coupe’s around the world, in the name of defeating the Soviets, and we should not be surprised those chickens came home to roost.


“he worked on the ‘original’ zapruder film, creating prints…He recalled the limo came to a stop.

The zapruder film was altered – this ten minute long video, explains:

JFK’s revenge: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Am4qdl9PTA

The story of ex secret service, Abraham Bolden, is also telling:


Frank von Winkhorst

The most obvious two problems with the Zapruder film are (1) the addition or enlargement of the freeway sign, demonstrated by John Costella using the fact that there is no optical (lens) distortion in the sign, whereas everything else in the entire film shows that distortion, indicating that it had been added post facto, apparently in the interests of hiding something or someone, and (2) the addition of a crude black blob to the back of Kennedy’s head in the blood spatter frame, in this case apparently in the interests of hiding the massive exit wound in the back of his head.


Russ Baker, in “Family of Secrets” (about the Bush crime family), ties Zapruder to the White Russian community in Dallas. Zapruder had been a co-worker of the fourth wife of George DeMohrenschildt, Jeanne LeGon. DeMohrenschildt was the CIA handler of Oswald.

Jeff Grotke

Hey Russ, any comment on the upcoming Roger Stone book? That seems to be getting a lot of play in the media.

Jeff Grotke

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FCysaDxU-GQ this video is an interesting surmise,,supposing Stairway to Heaven was about the killing of JFK…


So no one seems to notice after watching the video for 50 years that after JFK is shot in the neck from the front Jackie pulls him over puts her hand to the back of his left temple there is a puff of smoke and a glimmer of reflective silver then the right front porting of JFK’s skull is blown to bits. Its obvious to me and in plain sight. Jackie blows his brains out. Look a little closer and look at the stills. There are some videos on you tube that study this. After blowing him away, the silver object flies out of her hand and goes bouncing on the trunk and a Secret Service guy runs and jumps on the car to hand it back to her. This does not seem normal to me. hmmmm. Jackie and Assassin? This is a good place to check out for more: http://jackiekilledjfk.webs.com/


Ironic that as we approach the 50th anniversary of JFK’s murder that Tom Hanks is producing an “Oswald did it all by himself” version called “Parkland”. With all the years and reams of credible research to prove that that “theory” is totally bogus, this rich errand boy is going to try and keep the nonsense alive.


There is a good reason for that, unraveling any one of these conspiracies would open the door to thousands of government lies, it would like opening the flood gates in the monsoon


Shows you that Hanks has rejected to path of truth.


This is not Secret Service Agent Henry Rybka. That was a misidentification. The agent throwing up his arms in disbelief is Secret Service Agent Don Lawton. See Vince Palamara’s excellent explanation at http://henryrybkadonlawtonjfksecretservice.blogspot.com/

John Smith

I appreciate that. Thank you.


McAlthough fifty years have gone by, the interest in JFK’s assassination is as keen as ever. A new book by legendary political consultant and strategist, “The Man Who Killed Kennedy: The Case Against LBJ.” lays out an air-tight case against Lyndon Johnson Stone, no stranger to political intrigue, is the man who screwed Al Gore out of the Presidency, exposed Eliot Spitzer as a client of a prostitution ring and shut down federal funding for Ross Perot’s Reform Party, a move that helped the GOP. Roger Stone has the street cred to write the definitive account of the JFK assassination. The Man Who Killed Kennedy will be out on Oct. 1st. http://www.amazon.com/The-Man-Who-Killed-Kennedy/dp/1626363137/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1366222431&sr=8-1&keywords=Roger+Stone

Keith Kampschaefer

Kennedy’s attempt to diminish the control of the Federal Reserve as well as his speech calling for the press to expose secret societies was a shot too close to the heart of the Illuminati.

Since 9/11 many have awakened to this shadow government and its Agenda 21 plan for world domination.

LBJ may have been a key accessory to the assassination, but now he is being singled out to deflect responsibility from those secret societies truly responsible.

JFK was not perfect, but I believe he was righteous. The death of a righteous man will not rest until avenged.

Book it!


With a different whore averaging once a month for the entire duration of his presidency, he cannot be regarded as a righteous man by any stretch of the imagination, unless one is deranged or a Catholic.


There is a movie/doc called The Interview” pretty interesting. Saw it on Roku. Man dying of cancer says he was the shooter on the ‘grass knole.


He was the CIA agent in charge of the assasination


One thing is very definite, indeed, I do not see how could Oswald have shot JFK from his perch which would have made JFK’ head go forward not backwards.
Another item with which I am quite familiar is the Carcano rifle which was main rifle of the Italian forces during WWII, and as a partizan I remember that carcano was usually jammed between two rocks , bent over and thrown away, it was worthless, inaccurate and partizans very seldom utilized it in combat. So I do not believe that Oswald could hit a table top with it from his perch

Frank von Winkhorst

The real problem with the Oswald fairy tale is that the best shot from the 6th floor window would have been right between the eyes as the motorcade was approaching along Houston Street and the president’s head was growing larger and not moving laterally, not moving away, and not obscured by a large tree.

Matt McGill

Yes, I’ve visited the sixth floor museum, and looked out that window and wondered the same exact thing….


wasn’t it ww1?


Slightly modified for the Bersalieri

Frank von Winkhorst

Perch? Oswald was on the 2nd floor 90 seconds after the shots. There was a witness on the stairs right after the shots that didn’t see Oswald on the stairs. And there was a witness across the hall on the 2nd floor who was giving Oswald change of a dollar when the shots were heard. Perch? Please, confine yourself to the facts.


“I worked on multiple Presidential trips for
Ronald Reagan,” Stone adds. “I can tell you that the Secret Service never
decides a motorcade route, they only advise. Connally threatened to scrub the
visit if JFK’s aides didn’t agree to his route plan.” – See more at: http://eastorlandopost.com/did-lbj-conspire-kill-jfk-new-book-presidential-aide-says-yes#sthash.efmQPjaw.dpuf



See minute 1.55 for SS agent Clint Hills answer

Frank von Winkhorst

Hill still claims that he jumped onto the back deck of the limousine before it reached the underpass, whereas the current redaction of the Zapruder flim-flam shows otherwise.

Frank von Winkhorst

I am continually amazed at how information that has been known for decades among the JFK research community is presented at this website as if it were breaking news. As for Secret Service failures, Fletcher Prouty, again decades ago, remarked that as soon as he saw the films of the assassination, he knew that the fix was in. He specifically mentioned the open windows that should have been nailed shut, indicating, at the very least, that the route had been changed at the last moment, and at worst that the Secret Service failed to perform the most rudimentary of its duties that day. Add to this the slowing down of the limousine, if not its actually stopping, that allowed the final murderous shot to reach its target, rather than speeding away to the hospital to allow the president’s throat wound to be treated. The calling off of the agents from the presidential limousine was just one of a number of suspicious activities that day, including the calling off of the usual military (army, not CIA affiliated air force) presence in the city after Kennedy arrived.

Jeff Grotke

There are, absolutely, old facts that are uncovered again, but Russ has also done a tremendous amount of reporting, adding especially to knowledge about the connections between the assassins.

Frank von Winkhorst

Again, this is old news. Baker seems to be a master of reporting what is already known. Does he really think–does anyone really think–that the fact that a former mainstream media reporter is now reporting it makes an iota of difference?

Jeff Grotke

there are a lot of new facts in the book Russ wrote. I agree with your general contention, however, that facts tend to surface one by one, and then get regurgitated later on, as new facts. Nowadays the new “facts” are mostly revelations that certain persons believed LBJ and the CIA did this thing.


I figure if lbj was really trying hard almost demanding her to ride in their car that would be because he knew what was about to happen .


I fail to understand why you fail to understand that there are new people every day learning that their government planned, executed and covered up the murder of their President. There should be a thousand more sites just like this.


There’s way more than this. The JFK assassination was an inside job, as any reasonable person who studies the evidence will see.


Bush senior was in Dallas that day at the police station.


Thank you for participating at whowhatwhy.org.
In compliance with our guidelines, would you please provide a source for your statement?


Edward Jaffe

“Bush senior was in Dallas that day at the police station.”

One Source: BUSH FAMILY OF SECRETS by Russ Baker…(slightly different location)

Frank von Winkhorst

You beat me to it. Clearly, the quality of the office help leaves something to be desired.

Dan Selzer

When are the people of JewSA going to wake up to the fact that we have been lied to since day one


You’ll be banned in a nanosecond. Shame on you. Disgusting and cowardly.

Jeff Grotke

Another point about this video is it shows, as does the Zapruder film, JFK’s car in the lead. This is silly for many reasons. First, it is the most vulnerable position. Second, the other dignitaries generally go first, so that they can be seen, as most of the crowd dissipates as soon as the President goes by.


LBJ had some crazy motive to have jfk set up, and the means.

Jeff Grotke

considering the books that have come out detailing how JFK had a wild lifestyle, which the Secret Service would have been well-aware of, is it really that unbelievable that one or two of them might have lost a great deal of respect for JFK, enough to be involved in the hit?


Could there have been someone in the trunk of the car? Were the police dressed in jackets & Cowboy hats in the footage shown by Prouty Texas Rangers?(At the hospital, after the shooting, standing around JFK car).What was the name of the baseball team that GWB owned?


When I watch the Zapruder film seeing the President’s head violently snap backwards it is very clear to me – anyone can see that – that that shot comes from the front. Empirical evidence strengthening this conclusion is also present by Jackie climbing out on the trunk retrieving a part of his skull. She carried it all the way to Parkland Hospital. The piece of the skull traveled in the same direction as the shot in the film – from the front to the back. Also, the motor cycle rider riding to the back and left of the limousine – Bobby Hargis – was sprayed with blood and brain matter. This corroborates that the shot and the spray traveled from the front to the back. This evidence taken together is conclusive.
There really was more than one shooter and hence there really was a conspiracy.


our own cia had motive. Personally i think the babushka lady looks like a man in drag, even stands like a man (think about the time period,women were still raised very conservative)

Paul DeMoret

I’ve seen the original tape with all frames for the president loading into his limo and there are missing frames to this airport video.

The original film shows the man in the limo behind the presidents limo clearly getting the attention of the 2 secret service agents and waiving his arm to clear off of the presents rear standing positions of the limo. Then in this video you clearly see the agents standing down and shrugging their shoulders 3 times being confused. This is very concerning and would like to ask has anyone ever got the interview with the agent that waived them off and why, because if they were on the back of the Presidents limo, he wouldn’t be Dead!


It is obvious that Agent Rybka or Landis;the agent shrugging his shoulders, and left behind at Love field, was not aware of the ‘changes’ made,over the previous 24 hours regarding his duties.Those duties were to protect JFK!

The importance of this film is significant because the agent left behind was the closest secret service agent to the President. He was the agent who should have responded after the first rifle shot and most importantly,he was the agent assigned to protect The President!

I am amazed when I hear commentators say, “if there had been a conspiracy,someone would have talked by now”. Many have talked and many were not allowed to talk. They were not called by the Warren Commission or mysteriously died.


Where did this video come from? Who took it, and where has it been for 50 years?

I have been looking on the web for attribution, in vain.

Tom Whalen

It does seem that the relevant question at this point is not whether there was a conspiracy. Conspicuously,there was and the Warren Commission was a travesty. The burning question is how is it that the mainstream media has been so complicit? It was so painful and maddening to watch the coverage of the 50th anniversary of The Big Event. Sadly, so many people don’t think it matters anymore and it certainly does on so many levels.


Long ago, I put the JFK analysis away. All I needed to know was nothing we were told was true and the coverup or conspiracy was from above the agents. Recently, however, I watched a film on Netflix that concerned a forensic expert’s published take. He demonstrated that a bullet came from the rear, left – from the second car. The take is that is was an accidental shot by an agent not properly trained, having a loaded weapon that when off when he jerked. He was identified. Check it out.

Who knows? But covering up a terrible accident is exactly what the government would do. It would be a less painful lie than that of subversive.

Jarrod Valliere

I saw that documentary too and briefly considered it plausible. However, it is absolutely the most absurd theory of them all. To believe that someone in the car behind the motorcade shot Kennedy accidentally, you’d still have to go along with the fact that there was at least one other person aiming for Kennedy’s head. It appears to me that this is a BS theory put out there to get us looking in the wrong direction.


I was searching about JFK and this really opened my eyes – I was not expecting that.

Joseph Waters

Was the AR-15 that George Hickey had in the follow car ever checked to see if it was fired? You would think that question would have been asked and followed up on.

Tom Janson

I don’t think so. The clowns who came up with that ultimately settled a lawsuit by Hickey.


What a crock.


wow… just… I will never forget where I was when this happened.