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When the world’s richest men decide democracy is optional, we all pay the price.

They once championed marriage equality and promised to make the world more open and connected. Now Elon Musk, Peter Thiel, Marc Andreessen, and a tight network of Silicon Valley billionaires are bankrolling authoritarian politics, questioning democracy itself, and leveraging their control of our communication infrastructure to reshape American power.

But here’s the uncomfortable question: Is this genuine ideological conversion, or simply the world’s most expensive insurance policy? And does it even matter?

On this week’s WhoWhatWhy podcast, journalist and author Jacob Silverman reveals how a few dozen mostly white men — many connected through South African roots, shared grievances about “woke culture,” and an interlocking web of investments — transformed from progressive donors into Trump’s most powerful allies. 

Silverman, author of Gilded Rage: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley, lays out the authoritarian turn of the tech elite from defense tech contracts to crypto corruption, from charter cities in Honduras to recall elections in San Francisco.

He argues that their alliance with Trump represents something more dangerous than traditional oligarchy: the fusion of unprecedented wealth with control over the platforms that shape our consensual reality. Whether it’s performative or sincere, their rage is reshaping America. And we’re all living in the world they’re building.

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(As a service to our readers, we provide transcripts with our podcasts. We try to ensure that these transcripts do not include errors. However, due to a constraint of resources, we are not always able to proofread them as closely as we would like and hope that you will excuse any errors that slipped through.)

[00:00:14] Jeff Schechtman: Welcome to the program. I’m Jeff Schechtman. In the great sweeping narrative of American capitalism, there have always been men of enormous wealth who believe their fortunes entitled them to reshape democracy itself. From the Gilded Age robber barons to mid-century industrialists, we’ve seen this pattern repeat. But something fundamentally different is happening now in Silicon Valley, something that should trouble us all. The tech elite who once positioned themselves as progressives, supporting marriage equality, speaking the language of disruption and democratization, promising to make the world more open and connected, have undergone a transformation that goes beyond simple political realignment. They haven’t just changed parties, they’ve begun questioning democracy itself, which raises perhaps the most important question. Is this real or is it theater? When Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, Tim Cook, Mark Zuckerberg, and most recently Mark Benioff line up to pay homage to Donald Trump, are we witnessing genuine ideological conversion or simply the world’s most expensive insurance policy? Are these men pursuing governmental contracts and regulatory favor or have their views of the world actually changed? It’s the same question we might ask about William Randolph Hearst. Did he start wars to sell newspapers or did he believe in the causes? And here’s the uncomfortable truth. Perhaps it doesn’t matter. Perhaps the sincerity question is a distraction. When the people who control our communications infrastructure, our cloud computing, our social networks and increasingly our artificial intelligence align themselves with authoritarian power, the result is the same whether they believe it or are merely performing it. My guest today, Jacob Silverman, has written what may be the essential book for understanding this moment. Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley isn’t simply about one mercurial billionaire and his rightward drift. It’s about a network of the most powerful people in the world, people who have decided that democratic accountability is an outdated constraint on their vision. From Peter Thiel’s early democracy skepticism to Elon Musk’s alliance with Trump, from charter cities in Honduras to private communities in Texas, from the capture of defense contracts to the pursuit of artificial general intelligence requiring unlimited capital, Silverman has mapped a landscape of billionaire rage that’s reshaping American politics and America in real time. What makes this moment particularly dangerous is not the concentration of wealth. We’ve had that before. It’s the combination of that wealth with control of communications platforms, with genuine ideological conviction and with a generation of younger tech leaders who grew up viewing governance as merely software to be replaced. Jacob Silverman is a contributing editor at the New Republic and the Baffler. He is co-author of the New York Times bestseller Easy Money about cryptocurrency fraud and the author of Terms of Service about social media. He’s done the difficult work of mapping this network of power and influence. And today we’ll explore what it means when the world’s richest men decide they don’t want to be among the rest of us anymore. It is my pleasure to welcome Jacob Silverman here to talk about Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the radicalization of Silicon Valley. Jacob, thanks so much for joining us here on the WhoWhatWhy podcast.

[00:03:42] Jacob Silverman: Thank you. Thanks for the wonderful introduction and really summing up the issues at stake, I thought, in a really great way.

[00:03:47] Jeff Schechtman: Well, thank you. Appreciate that. I want to begin by talking about, in a general sense, this group of oligarchs that we’re talking about and this remarkable transformation that took place, because these were guys that at one point were considered progressive Democrats. They were for liberal causes in many cases. And they have gone through a remarkable transformation. Talk about this just in terms of the timeline that we have seen over the past 10 years.

[00:04:18] Jacob Silverman: Sure. Well, I think, as you said in your introduction, I mean, some of these people have changed out of expediency or opportunism and some more deeply and ideologically, though in practice of a lot of it tends to be the same thing. And I think that the timeline that I’m really looking at is beginning with post 9-11 and then looking much more closely within the last 10 to 15 years. Even if we look in particular at the COVID years, that’s when a lot of the rejection of what they now call, what they call everything woke this now, but what they call woke or progressive politics, social justice politics in the form of Black Lives Matter or the Me Too movements, resistance to quarantine and COVID lockdown measures. All these forces started coming together, I think, to really alienate a lot of the tech elites or that’s how they took them. They did not handle these social and political movements very well and found them to be some form of progressivism that they really didn’t recognize. And this is when you start having more people like Musk talking about the woke mind virus. It’s when you have other tech elites like Marc Andreessen talking about communists infiltrating the tech industry. So there’s certainly a deep history here to what we’re talking about. But I’m focused quite a bit on the last couple of decades.

[00:05:39] Jeff Schechtman: And it’s almost like, to stretch the metaphor a little bit, it’s almost like some kind of virus entered into Silicon Valley because it wasn’t just one or two of these guys that were part of this transition. It was so many of them and it happened in groups and sometimes one at a time, but it seemed to take so many along with it.

[00:06:00] Jacob Silverman: Yeah, and, you know, there really is a social component to what we’re talking about here. And that’s why I talk about in the book how Musk might be the central figure because of his wealth and power and reputation. But we’re talking about a group of a few dozen mostly white men who know each other, associate with one another, talk on social media, talk in private group chats, invest in the same company. So, you know, there is a social and communicative dynamic to this thing. I mean, they are, they are or were kind of radicalizing one another. A lot of them were talking to the same right wing accounts on X and elsewhere. And or a lot, some of them synonymous, some of them like the writer Curtis Yarvin, who’s a right wing monarchist that some of these tech elites cite. It’s a story, I think, that, of course, has implications for us all. But we are talking about a small group of a few dozen tech millionaires and billionaires who really do know each other and kind of participate in this exchange of ideas with one another and going down the same political road together.

[00:07:02] Jeff Schechtman: A lot of it seemed to happen during the Biden years. That seems to have been the critical mass of this. Talk about that.

[00:07:10] Jacob Silverman: Yeah, I would argue that the Biden years were pretty good to the tech industry as basically this entire 21st century has been to the tech industry. But there were some efforts at regulation and also some proposals to tax unrealized capital gains. That’s not something that ended up happening. But for people who invest in startups and then hope that the stock goes public and then shoots up a thousand times, those kinds of unrealized capital gains taxes they found rather threatening. That’s something that Marc Andreessen talked about. And there were just other points of friction with the Biden administration that really they found intolerable. They did not like Lehman Khan, the FTC chair, who was probably Biden’s most effective appointee. And I thought had some ideas about economic competition that could actually help the tech industry. It probably would not help its most powerful players, but it could help it more broadly. Anyway, so there are these different points of friction, of differing policy ideas. And I would argue it was not an anti-tech administration. And as we saw, it was one under which tech did pretty well on its own right. But it wasn’t the free-for-all that they’d experienced under, say, the first Trump administration. It wasn’t the closed relationship and the revolving door personnel that was even under the Obama administration. And also another thing that had gone away was the zero interest rate years that basically started after the 2008 great financial crisis and had gone through through COVID. Interest rates were raised a little bit. But there wasn’t as much money going around. And while that wasn’t necessarily a Biden administration policy, the kind of blowback was felt by the Biden administration. So my overall argument is that there are some worthwhile points of contention to talk about there. But that mostly, actually, this was a group of people who did not like having their power challenged in their eyes for the first time.

[00:09:09] Jeff Schechtman: And how did Donald Trump become their totem in so many respects?

[00:09:14] Jacob Silverman: Well, I think they shared some cultural grievances with him, first of all. Even though these guys are a wing of the establishment, as is Donald Trump, they don’t have a lot of respect for it. And Trump’s kind of abrasive bull in a china shop quality, I think, appeals to them the way it appeals to a lot of people who are into edgy online humor. More substantively, Donald Trump left open this lane of kind of political grievance and anti-woke, anti-progressive politics. And that is something that appealed a lot to the tech elites. Some of them were already conservative, like you mentioned earlier, Peter Thiel or his friend David Sachs. I mean, these are longtime conservatives, but it’s first people like Andreessen or Musk or people who thought that the rank and file of tech had gotten too lefty. The anti-woke sensibility and kind of outrage of MAGA was very appealing. And we can even get more specific and say it was someone like Musk. When his daughter came out as trans, I believe during the COVID era, it hit him in a very significant way. I mean, his child, Vivian Wilson is his daughter’s name, and she’s now sort of a public figure and on social media. But at the time she wasn’t, and she wrote in her name change application that she wished not to be associated with her father anymore. And that’s when, because as you said, he bullied her and mistreated her. And that was really when you started hearing Musk talk about the woke mind virus, about communism in schools. And this is something you’ve heard also from Bill Ackman, the financier who says that Harvard turned his daughter into a Marxist. You know, there’s a sense from a lot of these guys that the existing institutions are turning kids into lefties. And there is sort of a red scare quality to it, too. You’ll hear them say communists. And so for someone like Musk, the transphobia and contempt for institutions that MAGA had really appealed to him.

[00:11:19] Jeff Schechtman: With Thiel and Musk and Sachs, what impact, if any, did the South African connection have?

[00:11:25] Jacob Silverman: Well, that’s something that I’ve thought about a lot and have a new podcast with the CBC. It’s a limited four episode series that’s still releasing episodes about Musk called The Making of Musk. And I think it’s not really a coincidence that a number of the most prominent people in tech and the most prominent authoritarians in tech, I would say, have these South African or Southwest African connections. In the case of Thiel, I believe he lived in the Southwest African area that became Namibia. These people, especially someone like Musk, someone who grew up in a racial elite and a highly stratified, highly engineered society, where engineers in particular were venerated. And I think you can see some of that ideological and political formation and legacy in how they act today. I mean, even a place like SpaceX or actually Tesla has been sued by black employees for having a racist work environment. But the way these guys seem to approach work and their role in larger society is that they are in charge and that they are eligible to reshape society as they see fit. And people like them are kind of the elected elite. And in some cases, that also means the genetic elite. I mean, someone like Musk, Musk is trying to have as many children as he can. He calls them his legion. And this seems to be connected in part to his own fears about population class, also to an idea that he is a cognitive elite who deserves to reproduce a lot and his descendants to be in charge. And I think that kind of comes from that South African upbringing.

[00:13:12] Jeff Schechtman: And Sachs also from South Africa.

[00:13:14] Jacob Silverman: That’s right. And then you have someone like Roloff Bosa, who is the head of Sequoia. He was an executive at PayPal, friends with Musk. Now he’s the head of the most important venture capital firm in the valley. And his father was, I believe his grandfather was, I think, the last foreign minister of apartheid in South Africa, Bosa. So, you know, there’s a lot going on there. And I think the fact that, you know, Silicon Valley idolizes founders with an authoritarian streak very much is in line with the culture and politics of that some of its most prominent members grew up with in Africa.

[00:13:53] Jeff Schechtman: There also seemed to be another through line with a real distaste for what had happened to San Francisco and the Bay Area. Talk about that.

[00:14:03] Jacob Silverman: Yeah, they see San Francisco as kind of this basically this fallen hellscape, the kind that’s been caricatured, I’d argue, in social media and especially on national media and on Fox News and elsewhere, that San Francisco is this failure of liberal democratic governance, including both Big D, Democratic Party and small d. This is a group of people, some of whom are on record of not caring much for democracy. For Peter Thiel, it’s not a value he holds dear. Musk says that he would like a Caesar or a Roman dictator type figure to cleanse the country. So I think for a lot of them who said San Francisco was important to them, but especially as some of its social issues became more visible, more prominent, like the public drug use and public presence of homelessness. And frankly, at the same time, some of these guys got very rich and probably saw San Francisco more from the back of a chauffeured car than on foot. They became very alienated from the city that had supposedly nurtured their wealth and their rise to greatness. And their belief was that progressives and liberals had basically killed San Francisco and done this. And this is the inevitable outcome of how they govern. When you really get down to it, San Francisco has often been governed by centrist Democrats with support from right wing political and financial interests. But that wasn’t a complicated picture that they were interested in taking in. So one thing that we did start seeing a lot of was this group both leaving San Francisco in some cases and seeking alternatives. And in the case of people like David Sachs, putting a lot of money towards local politics and especially recall elections in a way the city hadn’t seen before. So you had this big explosion of 501c4 groups with names like Neighbors for a Better SF or Grow SF. And a lot of those were vehicles for tech money and to lobby for more kind of conservative Democrat and even right wing interests. And then you had this run of recall elections. And that’s really where David Sachs became a big player in local politics more recently was he helped fund the recall of several members of the school board, which was successful. He participated in the attempted recall of Gavin Newsom, which was not successful. And then he was a big part of the recall of Chesa Boudin, the reformist progressive DA, who was in office for less than a year, but got tarred with a lot of the city’s issues. And again, the actual picture is always more complicated. Violent crime was down under Chesa Boudin, but there were issues with property crime and break-ins of cars and kind of these public social issues that people were unhappy with and wanted car solutions to like homelessness. But they were able to paint this image of him as what a Soros DA, a killer DA they called him. And it was after the successful recall of Boudin that you started hearing from Sachs and others, OK, this is a model they want to replicate. I mean, they would say this publicly that they wanted to replicate in other parts of the country. And that’s when also I think the increase in more open tech support for Trump really started to come to the fore.

[00:17:22] Jeff Schechtman: It is interesting, though, that as as AI has exploded and not to get too far off the field here, but as AI has exploded, San Francisco has once again become the tech capital and Silicon Valley along with it.

[00:17:35] Jacob Silverman: Yeah. I think that whatever whatever fall in the era there was for San Francisco was was rather brief in some ways. I mean, it’s still I was just there the other day. But of course, it still has issues like a lot of America’s urban centers. But the people who left San Francisco and there wasn’t a population exodus during covid, the numbers have mostly rebounded. And I, you know, the also the commercial real estate vacancy rate was very high. That’s starting to come back. I think one issue is that San Francisco felt some of these covid era issues that a lot of people felt more acutely, because, you know, there are people with money in San Francisco. So when covid hit, some of them could leave and go to their to their mountain homes or go find housing elsewhere. So there was a real exodus to other parts of California, even to Reno, Nevada, where there was some real estate. And also San Francisco, because of its role in the culture and in tech, it was kind of heavily mythologized. And so we’d hear about everything that happened in San Francisco and see all these videos of destitution on the streets when, you know, that wasn’t the only story about San Francisco and certainly not the only story about urban America. But because of that unique place that San Francisco has in the media and tech economy, you know, it received extra focus and I would say a distorting kind of focus. And now when you look at San Francisco, you know, one issue might be that it is so far back into this tech, into what’s now an AI bubble. But in many ways, the economic and social and political conditions there are pretty much back to what they were in 2020.

[00:19:18] Jeff Schechtman: What role has crypto played in all of this?

[00:19:21] Jacob Silverman: I’ve written a lot about crypto as a force for political corruption, especially in the current Trump administration. I mean, it is a way in which he is essentially able to be paid off by people who want favors from the president. And some of them apparently have already received them in the case of government contracts or drop investigations or lawsuits. You know, crypto was a source of one of the last big tech booms, or there was this 2022 crypto boom that ended when a number of big companies like FTX were revealed to be fraud and a couple of people went to prison. I don’t see necessarily consumer crypto coming back. But now crypto is a big part of the tech industry’s relationship with the government. Because the crypto industry was so successful in the last election, it was the biggest industry’s donor to the Republican Party, over $200 billion. And obviously Trump himself became the country’s chief crypto entrepreneur. So sort of that became the activist wing of the tech industry on the policy front and got a lot of what it wanted and is continuing to get a lot of what it wanted legislatively and regulatorily. And it’s also provide a model for tech politics. Already there’s been established a new super PAC by the AI industry, which includes some of the same players as crypto and some of the same investors. And they’re explicitly modeling it on fair fake, which was the big crypto PAC of the 2024 cycle. So I think in a lot of ways, the influence and legacy of crypto is really about how it’s used in politics and how it’s kind of infiltrated and undermined the political system.

[00:21:03] Jeff Schechtman: The other thing that we’ve seen, and you write about this in Gilded Rage as well, this closer and closer relationship between the tech world and the defense department.

[00:21:15] Jacob Silverman: Yeah, there’s a whole industry within tech now called defense tech or sort of an area of investment that people are very excited about and a huge new profit center. And it used to, you know, of course, tech has some countercultural roots and then from the 60s and 70s and its Bay Area home. And in the 80s and 90s, you had various cypherpunk movements, kind of libertarians who thought encryption and digital money would free them and wanted to be away, separate from the state. And a lot of those instincts have gone away. And now there’s a real accommodation towards the state or even an eagerness to make surveillance systems and weapons. And any kind of moral questions have really been dispensed with. And the general attitude is that America is great, America is cool and worth defending. So why not make sophisticated, high tech drones and weapons systems and AI systems for the government to be that? And some of this stuff is already, of course, in play. I mean, companies like Palantir and then Onduril, which are both related to Peter Thiel in one way or another, have been very successful. And Palantir, probably more people are hearing about during the second Trump administration. And they really paved the way both monetarily and ideologically for the tech industry to reorient itself and say, you know, we don’t need to fight government surveillance and secret lawsuits or to think the government is bad anymore. We can build stuff that they’re going to use in Ukraine or on the U.S.-Mexico border or wherever else and make a lot of money from it. And there’s this new jingoistic, almost warrior class attitude among some venture capitalists and CEOs in Silicon Valley now where they’re not thinking about the failures of the war on terror or anything like that or how to make a safer, more diplomatically friendly world. They’re thinking about how to scare America’s enemies into compliance. And this is the kind of language that Alex Karp, the CEO of Palantir, uses.

[00:23:22] Jeff Schechtman: Talk a little bit about within a broad framework, is there anything that the Democrats or individuals within that world can do to reignite any kind of connection to these people?

[00:23:38] Jacob Silverman: I think Democrats, certainly out of expediency, because this is a major power center and they have a lot of money, would like to repair relationships with the tech industry and even this right wing of the tech industry. They’re still trying to do it with crypto. I argued, including sometimes with the Democratic politicians, that I think crypto is much more of an adversary than a potential partner for the Democratic Party. I also think its product hurts everyday voters and shouldn’t be something that they support, and it directly enables Donald Trump’s corruption and the fantastic payoffs he’s getting. The tech industry is a bigger, more diverse beast potentially than just crypto or even then the very powerful leadership we’re talking about. But it is, I think, true that a lot of this tech leadership is now comfortably MAGA aligned, if not very ideological like Thiel or Musk, at least happy to support the current regime like we’ve seen from the heads of Apple and Alphabet and Microsoft and elsewhere. So some of the big tech players, I think, will go where the political winds blow. But I think for Democrats, I think more broadly, they need to be talking about issues of corruption, of rule of law and of inequality and workers’ rights and consumer rights, the kind of staples that I think have been in the part of the Democratic Party mandate and have been helpful in the past. I don’t know if directly kind of going to battle with the tech industry or trying to kind of coax it out of its right wing crouch would be as helpful. But if they can find issues that the public cares about that don’t directly alienate the tech industry so much, maybe some progress can be made.

[00:25:26] Jeff Schechtman: The other part of it is how much of this is sui generis to the relationship with Trump And where does J.D. Vance fall into this equation?

[00:25:35] Jacob Silverman: Well, the interesting thing about Vance is that he is a Peter Thiel guy. He went when he was at law school, he heard Thiel speak at Yale, and he has said it changed his life. And he went to go work for Thiel and a lot of his early career was basically sponsored or arranged by Thiel, and he eventually became a venture capitalist with his own firm. So while Thiel has the new right Catholic convert persona that is a big part of his politics and his appeal to a certain crowd, the tech persona also, the venture capitalist side of him is something that the tech industry really likes. And I don’t think he, you know, there’s a question of whether he can replace Trump as a charismatic leader of the MAGA movement. But in terms of a of a colleague or potential partner, the tech industry does like Vance very much. And they were very much encouraging Trump to pick him, including at a dinner that’s been reported on that occurred at David Sachs’s mansion in San Francisco during the 2024 cycle. He’s definitely the next horse that they want to put their money on.

[00:26:44] Jeff Schechtman: And then the other question comes back to, as I raised in the introduction, how much of this is ideologically sincere versus how much of it is opportunistic?

[00:26:55] Jacob Silverman: I think, as I’ve tried to describe, for some people, there isn’t a sense of opportunism. You’ll always find that with billionaires or corporate CEOs who have vast interests, especially, you know, the heads of companies like Alphabet who are worried about being broken up in an antitrust processes, or Mark Zuckerberg has really shown himself amenable to kind of partnering with whoever’s in office now. He’s kind of made himself MAGA lite, kind of Joe Rogan, who says to Trump, you know, what number do you want me to say for how much data infrastructure he’s building? On the other hand, I think we can’t ignore that all these guys have an authoritarian kind of streak or impulse for some of them much more pronounced. I mean, these are people, especially now with the AI boom and so much money at stake and such huge capital expenditures and infrastructure projects. This is, you know, this is not making cheap apps in someone’s garage. This is really big stuff, often of a geopolitical dimension, and it brings out the authoritarian streak in these people. And I also think that we’ve seen enough from some of the so-called converts like Musk or, you know, people, some of the people at Sequoia, like there’s a partner named Sean McGuire or other prominent industry figures, some of whom talk about their own right-wing conversion, that there is a lot of ideology at play. And it’s still going to be a force, I think, and a new kind of force that we haven’t fully dealt with going into the next political cycle. You know, even if we have normal elections in 2026 and 2028, and maybe Democrats do regain the White House, I think something has changed here. You know, for a chunk of the tech industry, their politics now are much more like the tobacco industry or big oil, rather than, you know, utopian thinkers from San Francisco.

[00:28:44] Jeff Schechtman: The danger is, as we saw with tobacco and big oil, is that it will create a huge backlash, which could have political consequences.

[00:28:54] Jacob Silverman: Absolutely, and that we all use these companies’ products, and they have a lot of control over the development of these technologies, how they’re deployed, you know, the data that’s collected on us, whether that’s given to the government or not. And so, in a way, we’re living through their backlash already, their resentment over the woke COVID years. We’re experiencing right now their reactionary anger. But there’s also, you know, people in the public who are tired of these guys. And it could, you know, I see this flying in multiple directions, but Elon Musk is certainly already experiencing it. His car sales are down globally, especially in Europe, where he’s in big trouble because now the Chinese car companies are building better, cheaper cars that people want to buy. So the backlash, it’ll be interesting to see how it materializes. I mean, it’s not like in some cases people have a choice when they’re using some tech products, but there’s certainly, I think, an awakening happening among some people that, you know, these people are no longer our friends, that Mark Zuckerberg doesn’t have your best interest in mind. And he’s certainly made that clear in this new administration.

[00:30:00] Jeff Schechtman: And finally, Jacob, having spent all this time looking at these people, studying these people, looking at this world, who among them has the best political smarts? Who has their ear to the ground? Who is really not so much the leader, but really has a sense of where this all is going?

[00:30:19] Jacob Silverman: I think in some ways it’s still Peter Thiel. I mean, he’s not the best public speaker. Sometimes when I hear him speaking in public, I’m a little bit baffled that this guy is for the eminence grace of Silicon Valley conservatism. But his track record is one of someone who’s been, who’s made himself very rich and powerful and has bet on the right horses. And you know, he was, and I talk about him in that sense in the book, how he was early to Trump. He stuck with Trump through the Access Hollywood tape where Trump admitted to sexual assault. And even though he claimed to be not participating in this last election, he reportedly made a late donation. And a lot of his people are still throughout the Trump administration. And so I think in a lot of ways he’s been proven right, his instincts and his beliefs. And in that way, I think he poses kind of a danger to our system. That’s someone who is not, who doesn’t care about democracy, but has been able to get his way a lot and propagate his ideas.

[00:31:21] Jeff Schechtman: Jacob Silverman, the book is Gilded Rage, Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley. Jacob, I thank you so very much for spending time with us. Thank you. Thank you. And thank you for listening and joining us here on the WhoWhatWhy podcast. I hope you join us next week for another WhoWhatWhy podcast. I’m Jeff Schechtman. If you like this podcast, please feel free to share and help others find it by rating and reviewing it on iTunes. You can also support this podcast and all the work we do by going to whowhatwhy.org/donate.